Kyle Voth, and Tyler and Margaret Warkentin grew up in Mennonite anabaptist communities in North and South America. In this interview, they discuss with Michael Penfold the history, culture and beliefs of the Mennonites, and how growing up they had no peace that they were right with God or sure of getting to heaven. Watch their fascinating stories and learn where the assurance of salvation comes from.
Recorded in Manitoba, Canada, 24th Feb 2026
Complete Series:
- We Were Raised Mennonite – Kyle, Tyler and Margaret
- We Grew Up in a Hutterite Colony – Dan, Don and Derek
- We Were Very Religious Hutterites – Silas, Adrian, Cody and Marissa
- Calvinist and Reformed – Hendrik, Kelsey, Leanne and Hendrik
Further resources:
Eternal security | Mervyn Hall
Knowing for Sure You Are Saved | Michael Penfold
The Assurance of Salvation | Michael Penfold
The Sacrifice that Satisfies | Michael Penfold
5 Poems About the Assurance of Salvation
How Do You Know You Are Saved? | Michael Penfold
The Remarkable Conversion of W.W. Fereday
Are You Saved? | Michael Penfold
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FULL VIDEO TRANSCRIPT:
(00:00) If there was a vehicle coming to the colony, they would definitely look where where that vehicle was going. >> Oh, I see. >> They [music] would spy. I think it’s called the midnight game, finding out who knows who and who they’re married to. >> I was asked at [music] work one of the lunch hours if I was saved.
(00:15) >> Mhm. >> I said, “Well, I’m baptized.” [music] >> The man just responded, “That’s not what I asked.” >> A man from I think he was from Ontario. He showed up on our yard. I guess the Holy Spirit had told him, “This [music] family is searching.” He already said, “It is finished.” Well, what else are we going to do? >> Yeah, there’s there’s nothing more to do. It’s already done.
(00:40) >> Kyle, Tyler, Margaret, great to have you with us today. Uh, we’ve been looking forward to doing this for a long time. The idea to put all these people together and discuss the communities here in Manitoba. I don’t think anybody could possibly guess what the temperature is outside. It is minus30.
(01:02) How do you guys survive in this weather? >> We adapt. [laughter] >> As soon as I got here, I had to go and buy a new jacket in Marx that was good for minus 25 cuz my other jacket that I bought from England just like tissue paper and just the wind just cut straight through it nearly killed me. So in Manitoba, you have a number of religious communities that we don’t have in the UK.
(01:28) So I was familiar with the Amish because I’ve seen them in the US before, but Hutterites, Menanites, Dutch Reform, these are people that we’re not familiar with and I thought it’d be a great idea to get some of them together and just talk about your background, what it’s like to be. So you you you’re all three Menanites.
(01:46) So, we’re going to do a a session on on the on the what what it is to be a Menanite, what it’s like, what does it mean, where did it start? Cuz what what I found is just going around like Polo Park in Winnipeg, you see all these different people dressed in different ways, which is very unusual for us with veils and and it’s like I really want to get to know what these people are like.
(02:11) So, maybe we just start just a very brief introduction to yourself, Kyle. I’m Kyle Vloth and uh I have a wife, six children, been saved for 10 years. That’s important. >> Mhm. >> And yeah, I do paintless dent repair for work and >> Yeah. >> So, VH is is that like a German name? >> Yeah, it would would be. >> So, would Menanites generally have German original German >> background names? technically Netherlands Dutch.
(02:46) >> Okay. >> Um but yeah, we are lowger German speaking or what we call plot each. Yeah. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. So Tyler and Margaret, you’re you’re a married couple. >> Yes, we >> um so what’s introduce yourself? I know you have a a newborn, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My name is Tyler Workington.
(03:09) Uh we have a seventh month old boy. His name is Nathaniel. And uh yeah, we uh live here in Manitoba and um I drive a delivery truck around in Manitoba for work and >> with winter tires on at the moment. Eh, >> with winter tires on at the moment. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That’s >> See, that’s another thing we don’t have in England or in the UK. Winter tires.
(03:34) Never heard of them. But I mean without those it would be a mess, right? it. Uh, winter is um I I love the four seasons here in Canada and you know winter it’s just something you get used to. I grew up here. You just get used to it. It’s uh I mean I’ve been driving truck now for um for like 9 years and uh the hardest part about driving in the winter is all in the head. I like it.
(04:10) Actually, yeah, there are those cold days and there are days where where it’s windy and it’s poor visibility and it’s snowing, but once winter’s all over, uh you think, “Well, that wasn’t that bad actually.” And it’s all wrapped up in the head is where the hardest part. >> Another thing I’ve never seen in Manitoba is you open the front door and this cloud of steam seems to come in.
(04:32) It’s amazing. So, you’re you’re stay-at-home mom, right? >> Yes. >> Looking after Nathaniel? Yes, that’s mostly my job. But I Yeah, that and then look after housework. They do the cooking and >> wonderful >> whatever else needs to be done. >> Such a beautiful place, Manitoba and all covered in white at the moment.
(04:52) So, let’s get into the let’s get into the the whole history thing here. So, when we think of Mananites, Kyle, where does that name come from? Does it go back centuries? Did it start in Canada? just give us what you can a kind of a brief overview of that. >> Sure. So, um, Menanites came out of the Anabaptist movement of the res reformation.
(05:17) >> So, so what is what does Anabaptist mean? >> Rebaptizers. >> Okay. >> Yes. So that started uh early 1500s is when sort of that group formed and and the man who it’s named after Meno Simon he sort of joined and began teaching mid 1500s about then so there was already a group established and >> so what was his name >> Menos Simons >> so he would have been born Roman Catholic >> yes he was a priest >> oh a priest >> he was yeah >> in what country >> that’s a good question Netherlands I I think is where he was originally from.
(05:53) So the Menanites sort of northern Belgium and Netherlands is where that all started. >> So he would have been baptized as a baby in the Catholic church. Then he would have gone to seminary and he would have trained as a priest. Yes. >> And then would he did he have like a religious conversion? >> Yes.
(06:15) And I’m I’m not necessarily familiar with his testimony, but he realized the error of of what the religion he was involved with. >> And um he began teaching >> um well the name rebaptizers I guess sort of gives it away. So a conversion, a believer’s baptism and then separation of church and state would have been involved in his teachings.
(06:38) Um not taking up arms, this sort of thing. So, so he would have got that from his own reading of the Bible. >> Yes. Yeah. >> So, he must have had a Bible in by then the Bibles were available in in in German, let’s say, cuz it was always in Latin for centuries. >> Yes. Well, likely he would have known Latin if he was a priest, I’m assuming.
(06:59) >> Oh, yes, of course. >> But yes, his writings were in Dutch, I think. >> Yeah. >> So, then his surname, no, his first name, Menow. >> Yes. So Meno is where we get Menanites. >> Yes. Yeah. >> So he did he begin preaching once he had seen the light of salvation and and and believers baptism. >> Yeah.
(07:25) So I I guess he was sort of in a role like that in the Roman Catholic Church already. So he transitioned to just teaching and writing about the truth that he was seeing in the scriptures. So how he got joined up with the groups maybe that were already there. I’m not sure how that all worked out but >> so this was this was quite a thing right back >> yes >> back in 15 roughly 1550 or something >> around that time. Yeah.
(07:49) So, so back then to actually claim that the church which had been the one church for a thousand years, let’s say in Europe, the Catholic Roman Catholic Church >> to actually say they’re wrong about something as because they take Christing or sprinkling as as a sacrament, right? It’s all part of getting to heaven, right? >> So to actually say you don’t need that or it’s wrong.
(08:13) And actually the Bible teaches first of all you need to be be saved. Then as an adult you then get baptized which of course to the Catholic Church is rebaptism and a baptism. So so that’s like that made the Catholic Church extremely angry. >> Yes. Yes. >> And and so his followers then started getting persecuted. >> Yes.
(08:38) And so um of course there were many martyrs of that day. >> Mhm. >> Um people gave their lives for what they believed and their faith in Christ. Um, Menos Simon wasn’t a martyr, but he was a wanted man. Yes. And of course, the persecution made the group move. That’s so that’s where it began. Northern Belgium, Netherlands. And that first big move, I guess, was to Poland or Prussia at that time.
(09:05) >> So they moved to avoid being burnt at the stake or whatever. >> Yeah. Persecution from the Roman Catholic Church. And as they moved, did they find they were welcome in certain places or did they just keep moving? >> Yes, they they ended up staying in Poland for I think 400 years or maybe not quite that long, 300 years till about >> Oh, so they were in one country just all that time.
(09:29) >> Yeah. Okay. >> Until actually it was about I think mid700s and then they moved to Russia. At least the group that I’m from. >> Okay. >> Um they would have moved to Russia. It’s now Ukraine, but then it was Russia. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. >> And that again was because persecution broke out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
(09:50) And they so they wanted to sort of maintain autonomy from politics and government and they wanted their own schools and their own language and their own churches and be separate from bearing arms for the country. >> And so Russia at that time promised them that. There were some stipulations when they moved. They weren’t allowed to prostilize the Russians.
(10:12) They weren’t allowed to share their faith with with the the Orthodox people around them. >> Yeah. >> Because again, when you think back to to the pre-reformation times, the Catholic Church, there was no separation of church and state that that they were together. and and the the church could deliver a a heretic over to the secular arm to burn at the stage.
(10:40) >> So >> there was no what we take for granted now freedom of conscience, freedom of religion. You can believe whatever you want. It’s very difficult to even take your mind back and think what must that have been like for a for Menow Simon to actually say I’m going to risk my life for what I believe. >> Yes.
(11:00) Yes. and that and and those that listen to him as well. >> Yeah. >> So, I know Margaret, you’re you’re originally from Bolivia. >> Yes. >> Now, that really shocked me when I found out there’s menotes in Bolivia and then I looked up online and it said there’s 90 colonies in Bolivia, there’s 25 in Paraguay and then it sort of goes down Brazil and whatever.
(11:22) So, when did this migrate? Do you know when the migration happened? So, we’re you’ve gone to Russia now in the 1700s. When did they end up coming to South America? >> I wouldn’t know exactly the date, but >> would that have been in the 18 was it the 1800s when they came across to Canada? Yes. >> And then would they gone down to >> Yeah.
(11:45) >> South America from there? >> Yeah. I think the first group would have been 1870s and they they all came to southern Manitoba because the government had given >> we are filming today. Right. >> That’s right. Yeah. >> The remnants of that are still here. >> Yeah. >> Um so they they were the Menites as a group were given two tracks of land, the east reserve and the west reserve by the government.
(12:08) >> Oh wow. >> And so they all settled here >> again not wanting to bear arms. They wanted separate education. >> Yeah. >> And in early 1900s that started to change here. The government wanted formal education and and many of them didn’t like that. So that’s when they started moving south. So northern Mexico, South America, Central America.
(12:34) >> So that’s in the 19th century. >> Yeah. Like 1920s. >> Oh, 20th century. Okay. >> Yeah. So then that’s when Margaret’s uh grandparents, greatgrandparents would have moved to Mexico from Canada. >> Okay. Right. In the early early 20th century, >> your your great-grandparents were born here in Canada, right? >> Yes.
(13:00) >> Yeah. >> Yes. And then from here, I guess since like what he said, like they didn’t want to >> like No, they didn’t want separate bear arms. Yeah. They didn’t want >> separate school. >> Separate school. So >> that would have been during the first world war. There would have been Canadians would have been sent over to Europe to fight.
(13:16) So they didn’t want to have anything to do with that. >> That’s right. >> Yeah. >> There were um conscientious object objectors from the Menanites. So >> I would have had a great-grandfather that had to work in a logging camp for that was World War II, I think. But >> Mhm. >> they didn’t uh most of them didn’t actually fight. >> Oh, yeah. I know the Canadians.
(13:38) I remember going to uh the battlefields of World War I and there was a lot of Canadians killed there. >> So yeah, [clears throat] so that that that brings me to look at the kind of spectrum of the Menanites because I’m led to believe there’s there’s not just like this one way of being a Menanite. So you’ve got before we came on air we were we were you you described it as you were in a liberal manites and Kyle was in mediocre I think is what you called him and then Margaret was from a traditional conservative horse and buggy
(14:13) type manites. So so tell me about that. So, adding a little bit to what Kyle said, um, of the migration, my great-grandparents came here to Canada [gasps] just over 100 years ago now in 1925. They came to to Canada from uh, Russia, now Ukraine. they uh immigrated here to Canada because like Kyle said of the persecution and the bandits coming and the the Red Army and so my great-grandparents decided to make the long uh trip over to Canada >> and uh so I’m fourth generation here now in Canada already and I’ll say that I
(15:05) was I was born born a Menanite but uh no longer hold to the Menite um traditions. >> Okay. >> And and religious system. Uh but yeah, that’s where >> so so what we like in England and Ireland, Scotland, back back in the UK, we would have a lot of people like if they went to hospital and it says, “What religion are you?” they would write Church of England.
(15:33) But they actually only go at Christmas. you know, they’re nominally church of things. So, you’re saying you were like a nominal Menanite. You basically went to church, but it didn’t really affect your everyday life. >> Uh, I guess, yeah, went to church. Uh, went to church. Um, yeah. What should I say about my upbringing? Church.
(15:53) Um, I’ll say I was consider myself a pretty much normal Canadian. um from family, go to church on Sunday morning and uh yeah, listen to the preacher and go home and and that’s about it. You you keep on you keep on living life. But uh you we didn’t uh we didn’t know the gospel at at the Menite Church and and like you were saying before >> um that was a a liberal liberal Menite church.
(16:28) They weren’t holding to any um things that you had to do in order to be part of of the church. >> Okay. >> Very liberal. >> So you that so you didn’t the the ladies in your house didn’t dress a certain way or you didn’t have to wear what we call braces. I think you call them suspenders. There was no dress code for you. >> No. No. Nothing like that.
(16:50) Nothing like that. And at the church were they preaching all the sort of distinct things like anabaptism separation church and state you mustn’t bear arms you you need to have separate education was that a big thing or no nothing no it was more like the preacher would preach from the Bible but more just I’ll say um that God is love and and uh you know thinking about it uh when there was a funeral.
(17:21) Um, an old person died. >> He went to be he went to heaven. Went to heaven. >> But, uh, really there there was no gospel about being saved. Okay. >> That that uh that we never heard. >> So the kind of sermons that you would have gotten Sunday morning would have been talking about the love of God or some Bible story or something >> something or other like that. Mhm.
(17:46) >> Um, you know, I was uh quite a lot younger than I am now. Um, I was like 10 years old, 11, 11, I guess, when we would have left from that Menite church. One thing I do remember that I still find kind of funny is I remember the the pastor um talking about the football game that was on the weekend and I thought like really like sports is one thing but why talk about it in church? Um so yeah there wasn’t uh much truth at all >> okay >> at at the church.
(18:26) >> So it wasn’t like heavy Bible teaching. It wasn’t heavy Bible teaching. No. No. >> And this is in southern Manitoba. >> Yeah. Yeah. Also also in southern Manitoba. Just just around 2 hours east here. >> Yeah. So I typed into Google what are the most religious towns in Canada. And it’s the two most religious were Winkler and Steinbeck.
(18:48) >> Yeah. >> And >> so that’s near where you grew up. >> Yeah. That’s that’s very near to where I grew up. when when we would go to to the city shopping, we would have gone to Steinbeck. >> So in those days, there have been no Sunday opening, >> stores not open on Sunday. >> Yeah. I would have grown up the the store in town would be closed.
(19:09) I think even the gas station was closed. >> If if you wanted gas, then you should have filled up on Saturday. But like you have to think ahead. >> Mhm. So would the Menanites have believed or do they still believe that Sunday is like the sort of Christian Sabbath? >> Yeah. >> Um I don’t know what what the liberal Menanites believe now nowadays.
(19:34) Then that would probably be something more for the conservative Menites. >> Okay. Okay. Cool. So and so in in the Steinbeck Winkler area, it’s Winkler, right? >> Yeah. Right. So in that area it’s it’s very much like what we would call the Bible belt. It’s a very does everybody know everybody and they kind of all know which church you go to that kind of thing.
(19:57) >> Well there is this thing um talking about knowing everybody. The Menites they like to know what is it called? What is it called again Kyle? I think it’s called the Midnight game. Not >> it’s been referenced >> finding out who who knows who and who they’re who they’re married to and >> Oh, I see.
(20:19) And so when you meet someone, it’s all who are you related to? >> Who who are you related to and and who’s who’s your dad and granddad and >> so there’ll be a lot of intermarriage I guess because you’re all wanting to marry. So a Menanite would want to marry another Menanite, right? Um basically >> I don’t know basically generally how generally because it’s your only people effectively.
(20:42) >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Excellent. So um you’re liberal so let’s move to the middle of the road um version of the Menanites. I mean do they have very specific name? Are you like or is it very much it just settles down into how you want how serious you want to be? Yeah. So we were part of a group of churches and there was variation even within the group.
(21:11) >> So I I think that where we were attending as a young boy at least it was probably more of the on the conservative side of the group. So we would have >> And does that have a name that group? >> Yes. Um we were part of the Somerfelder Menanites. >> So what does Summerrfelder mean? >> It was just the name of the town where it started I think.
(21:32) >> Okay. Right. Yeah. >> Um, so my understanding is that group is quite a bit different now than when it was 30 years ago. So I can’t speak to what they are now, but what I grew up with, it would have been you walk into church Sunday morning and you’d have men on one side of the the church and then ladies and women and the the young children on the other and you would have had preachers up front, song leaders up front.
(21:59) And >> so, but in your church, the men and women would have sat all intermingled >> all together. Yeah. >> Okay. So, what’s the idea of of separating the men and the women? >> I couldn’t tell you. >> Okay. >> I don’t know if that was ever taught or why or >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, services were in low German.
(22:16) >> So, what is low German for the benefit of viewers and listeners? >> It’s, you know, I couldn’t tell you the origins, but it must have come from Dutch or Fian or something. and and it remained because of their separation from the world around them, it has remained pretty true to what it is. >> So in so so so you are all bilingual.
(22:38) You can all speak German and English, right? >> Not me. >> Not you, but you two. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. And that’s because you want to maintain that in the home. >> We haven’t. Um Okay. But growing up, >> not that it was necessarily taught, but English in the church wasn’t really allowed. But it was looked down on.
(22:57) So >> Oh, so your church services were all in German. >> Yes. >> Oh, wow. >> Um, more so probably from the older generation. >> Um, so and in the home we spoke English. I went to public school. So Okay. >> Once I hit that age, it was 100% English in the home pretty much. >> So it’s a bit like some Catholics believe the mass should be said in Latin.
(23:17) >> Yeah. >> So you believe that the church So would would the church services still be in German in in the group? No. So they made the change. Yeah. >> Okay. Interesting. So, um, compared with, uh, Tyler’s church where you’re just getting sermons that are sort of anemic, let’s say.
(23:42) What kind of preaching did you grow up under? It’s hard to define. Um I as I was thinking about this the past week, the best way I think I can describe it is self-centered teaching. >> And what I mean by that is everything from that was taught from the scriptures was revolving around self. So, uh, for example, if Abraham and Isaac was taught and Abraham taking Isaac up onto the mount >> to sacrifice, it would be taught that we should have that sort of obedience to God.
(24:18) >> It was more about us rather than a father giving a son. >> Mhm. >> Uh, which obviously points us to God and to Christ. >> And so, we wouldn’t we wouldn’t have had Christ centered teaching, but self-centered teaching. M >> um and that would that would go for anything. I mean even >> uh I know this story has been brought up before, but um the good Samaritan, it was taught that we needed to be the good Samaritan.
(24:44) We >> we needed to be that good person rather than Christ being the good Samaritan and we being the one falling in a ditch needing the help. >> Mhm. >> So that’s what I mean by self-centered. >> Mhm. So compared with Tyler, did you did did you have the dress code? >> So So I’ve noticed when when when I’ve been in in Winnipeg, I’ve noticed >> the Hutterites are very distinctive.
(25:15) So they have this kind of black veil and and maybe a long blue dress with flowers on it. It’s like very very distinctive. With the Menanites, it’s >> the Menanite ladies. They look very wholesome with long hair and and and and modest dress, but they would just have like a small cap or a little bonnet on the back of their head.
(25:36) Would you have gone gone for that? >> Depending on the group, um the women from where I came from did wear what they called a head covering. Okay. >> So, it wasn’t a circular bonnet type thing. It was more of a kirchief is what we called it or >> Mhm. sort of a small veil and uh going to church we would dress up we would dress respectfully but outside of that that didn’t really affect the home.
(26:02) >> Yeah. >> So then in in we’ll come to we’ll come to the um old order in a minute in in in your home life. So were you homeschooled? >> No. >> So the Menanites have their own schools? >> No, I went to public school. >> Oh, of course you said you went to public school. And what about you? Were you at public school as well? >> I started at public school.
(26:23) >> Okay. >> And then my parents uh started homeschooling. My um we we started homeschooling. We started homeschooling. Uh but that wasn’t uh anything to do with Menite. That was my my parents own personal >> um decision. >> Okay. So then again coming from a UK perspective we often think of the Amish you know they don’t have electricity and they don’t have um cars and you know for you life was otherwise pretty normal >> fairly. Yeah.
(27:04) We >> we would have looked the same as people. >> I mean as far as that goes we wouldn’t have gone to the movies or to the ball game and this sort of thing. I guess we were sort of separate from that in that way. >> But as as far as just if you would see us walk down the street, you wouldn’t necessarily differentiate.
(27:24) >> Mhm. Mhm. >> So then let’s come to the to the to the old you were from the of the three of you Margaret you were from the more strict group. >> Yeah, I would say >> which is called old order. Is that right? >> Old old colony what I would say. Yeah. So you you were brought up in Bolivia. >> Yes.
(27:47) [clears throat] >> Would all of the colonies in Bolivia be old order? >> No. >> Okay. >> There’s new colonies now, too, like that has recently started, but >> Okay. So, there’s a whole spectrum even in South America and Mexico. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah, that’s true. >> So, what what was it like growing up in in an old order Menanite church, old order Menanite family? Just generally, how would that be different from how your husband grew up? >> Like for me, I I I wasn’t I didn’t grow up like being in going to church.
(28:20) >> Oh, okay. >> I was only like you were only allowed to go to church once you were done school, >> like after school. >> So, you grew up not going to church? >> No, I think the only the first time I was at church was like what was I maybe 10, 11 years old. >> Okay. But that that was my my mom’s relatives or I guess they came and picked us up like with a they lived in a different colony.
(28:46) >> Okay. >> And then they came and picked us up and brought us to their church too >> that we were >> So your parents were not religious Menanites. >> Yes. >> Yes, they were. But I guess for for us like they didn’t have children at church. Just the older >> I see. >> Like once you were 13 or >> I see right.
(29:06) Your parents, your parents were going, but because you were children, you were not. >> No. >> Oh, okay. >> No. >> Wow. Interesting. >> Girls would go to church uh school like till they were like maybe 12 years old. They start at 5 and until >> 11 12 and then the boys would go a year longer. >> And that’s in a Menanite school. >> Yes. >> Okay.
(29:25) >> Yeah. Now I, as I say, I looked online, it talks about um 19 menite colonies in uh Bolivia. I didn’t think Menanites lived on colonies. I thought that was a Hutterite thing. So, is it a colony or what way does it work? >> Yeah, I would say colony. Yeah. >> But do you do does each family own their own house or >> Yes.
(29:48) >> Okay. >> Yeah, they all have their own house. >> So, you’re not sharing everything like the Hutterites do? No. No. No. But you’re living basically living in a village or a group of Yeah. >> Yes, that’s right. Yeah. >> So, what was what was church like then when you finally went to church as as a as a youngster? What are your memories of that? >> I was like I was amazed like at home you they would never tell us anything about church.
(30:15) >> Oh, okay. >> They would never tell us what they did at church like especially if there was a if they would do the breaking of bread like like just they they never told us and I started like wondering what is happening there like why don’t they tell us like why can’t we know >> but we they just didn’t they just >> So when you went this was like the first time you’d ever even seen what church was like.
(30:39) >> Yeah. >> So what was church like? Did the women and men sit separate? >> Yes. >> And was there a big choir or nothing like that? >> No, nothing like that. But this wasn’t like that the Yeah. No, I the preachers weren’t sitting at at the front or No, not the singers either or like the song leaders or whatever you would call them.
(31:01) But I just remember like when they were all kneeling down like >> what what’s happening now? >> Mhm. >> Like that’s how we grew up. Like when at church every like every Sunday you had you have to kneel like at >> for the whole service. >> For prayer? Yes. >> Oh, just for prayer. Okay. >> Yeah. The whole service or Yeah.
(31:17) I mean the yeah just for prayer they would all have to kneel and pray. >> So your buildings your buildings would be all plain like no stained glass windows and >> Right. >> Yeah. So it’ be a very plain building with like wooden benches maybe. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> And then the singing is no no music is it? >> No.
(31:38) >> So it’s ac capella singing. >> Yes. >> And it’s all beautiful harmonies isn’t it? They >> they have like a >> fourpart harmony or something. I don’t know how to how to say their singing. It’s just so long. Like one word that can be almost like a minute long till they’re done singing one word. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah, it’s maybe not as nice as you think.
(31:57) >> Well, I mean I’ve heard online beautiful Menanite singing, you know, like choir pieces and that really really nice. But maybe And so you sang in Latin, right? Sang in um German, right? >> Yeah. And is there a particular sort of way of singing that’s that’s unique to the Menanites when you’re is it almost like a chanting thing? Because I know my son-in-law who was a Hutterite he says that when the Hutterites sing there’s a very specific I’m not musical but the very specific intonation or whatever and and in the
(32:32) Armit there’s a very specific way of preaching. It’s almost like the preacher goes into a kind of a chanting almost like a translike kind of >> do you remember that? >> So it’s not just like a natural voice where they’re just talking. >> No, >> there’s a whole preaching >> kind of like a little I don’t know how to how to say it, but just different.
(32:54) >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And were you happy like growing up in in and all of that? >> I guess we didn’t know anything else. We didn’t know any better. Yeah. That’s just how how it was and just how you >> how you live. >> I mean, I can imagine there’s there’s an appeal to just living in this idyllic community and you all go to church and you’re all you’re all one kind of homogeneous.
(33:18) You all know what each other believes and you meet at the stores and from a in the crazy world in which we live, you can see the appeal of that that it’s like family centered and that you know you don’t even need a police force or anything like that cuz they’re all law-abiding citizens. It’s like it seems like this ideal world from the outside.
(33:39) Mhm. [laughter] [clears throat] >> So let let’s get on to let’s get on to um your own individual spiritual journey. So K um Carl, you wouldn’t have been baptized as a baby then. >> That’s right. >> Because because that’s been rejected ever since the reformation. >> Yeah. >> But but you would have gone to church.
(34:04) So, so, so as you as as you grow up, so let’s just think of someone from an evangelical church like a Baptist church or a or or whatever community church from an evangelical point of view. They’re thinking, right, we’re not just bringing you up to go to church. We want to see you come to Christ. We want to see you believe in the Lord Jesus to be born again and then be baptized and then become a member and marry another Christian.
(34:32) And that’s the kind of evangelical pathway and yeah that’s biblical but from your point of view what’s the aim how does how does a Menanite child look look ahead spiritually what’s kind of expected of you or what did you expect to happen >> well we weren’t or at least I wasn’t familiar with terms like born again and being saved >> but the goal would have been yeah to settle down have a a Christian, what we would call wife and be part of the church to be what they call baptis baptized and and then join the church and >> and be just be faithful, be regular,
(35:17) >> um live a good life. >> And so how maybe I should have started with the uh more liberal ones, but I’m going from left to right. So, how um how does a Menanite youngster what’s the process for sort of joining the church and becoming a a full-on adult Menanite? >> Well, a baptism would have been expected. So >> late [clears throat] teenage years it’s sort of gets to be that time >> and and just from observation it seems like because you had to to go through that process to be married in the church that many would have just done that been
(36:03) baptized uh to get married and and get on with life. Um >> so you have to be to get married in a Menanite service. They won’t do it unless you’ve been baptized. That’s what I don’t know if it was taught that way, but that was the impression that I had at least. >> Okay. So, so there’s no such thing as in in your group as an unbaptized married Menanite, >> right? >> Okay.
(36:25) >> Yeah. >> And so, did you have to prepare for that baptism? Did you have baptism classes or >> Yeah. Well, we would have called them catechism classes. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, we we went through that. And is there so Presbyterians would go through the Westminster Confession of Faith which is a catechism.
(36:44) Did is there a Menanite catechism? >> Yeah. Yeah. So it has articles of faith in there and answers and questions and answers and so that was that had to be gone through. >> So you have to memorize those. >> Um it was encouraged. Okay. >> I didn’t. Uh some of them did that. And then is there a moment when you sit down in front of the church elders and you you you have to answer the questions or is it just like homework? >> No, we were visited by the bishop and a preacher.
(37:17) Um but that was done in front of the whole church the question and answers that was done in in [clears throat] front of everybody. >> Yeah. >> And do they baptize you when you want to be baptized or is it like once a year they just do everybody together? Yeah, once a year right around Pentecost, I guess. Um, Easter, that time a year. >> Springtime.
(37:38) >> Yep. >> Okay. So, that’s going to be in a typical church that could be 30, 40 people. >> Oh, no. When I went through, I say five or six. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. So, how do you make make it known that you want to be baptized? Was it does it not work like that? Um, yeah. Well, you would just I I don’t know how I went about it.
(38:03) Likely just ask one of the preachers. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, you mentioned bishop. You mentioned a bishop and you mentioned preachers. >> Mhm. >> That’s that’s just uh something I hadn’t thought about. So, so in your particular group of menite church, is there one bishop over the whole thing? >> Yeah.
(38:23) Yeah. Over the >> And is anybody above him somewhere? >> No. >> Oh, okay. >> He would be. And how does he get to be bishop? >> He’s voted in. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> By all the churches in the group. >> Yeah. >> And then each church has one preacher. >> Oh, it would vary. It wouldn’t necessarily just be one. It could be one or two. Okay.
(38:40) >> Depending. Yeah. >> So, what powers does the bishop have? >> He’s sort of I mean, they wouldn’t say it this way, but he’s sort of the ultimate authority if there’s disagreement or he would make that final call. >> Okay. um often they they’d have brotherhood meetings and things would be decisions would be made by just voting and this sort of thing.
(39:05) But if I guess if it came to it then he would he would have that authority. >> So you were saying that a lot of people tend to get baptized just because they want to get married. >> Yeah. >> So that strikes me as it’s that’s a bit of a giveaway that quite a lot of what goes on is just religious formalities. It’s not really.
(39:27) So, so going back to reformation times, they’re actually dying. >> They’re being imprisoned. They’re being burnt at the state because of their rebaptism. But wind the clock forward 500 years. Now, it’s oh, I need to get baptized cuz I’m getting married. So, that’s a bit that’s a big shift, right? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Um my my experience wasn’t that I didn’t go through that process to be married.
(39:49) I was single. >> Okay. >> I mean, my my story includes a lot more than that. And I don’t know how much detail you want to get into, but >> well, I’d like I’d like to I think what we’ll do for the sort of second half, we’ve got another 35 minutes. What I thought we’d do is just look at each individual story. I mean, we can cross we can cross talk as it were.
(40:13) So, let’s let’s well let let’s give you a rest, Kyle. Let’s turn to you, Tyler. So, did you also come to a point where you wanted to get baptized or you needed to get baptized cuz you’re getting married? >> And I was a whole lot younger when when u my parents my parents made the decision to leave the church. >> Oh. >> So, uh I um wasn’t at that point of being baptized or or I would call now I would call it being sprinkled >> in the Menanites.
(40:43) You don’t do immersion. >> No. No. >> At all. Not even in the old order, Margaret or they No, >> but surely way back when in the in the in it that was the whole point, right? When when when Menow Simon split off from the Catholic Church and started saying we need to do what the Bible says, it would have been immersion back then.
(41:04) >> It’s my understanding that it was. Yeah. So back in the UK in in in the uh state church which is the Anglican church I think you call it the Episcopal church here there is a font. So this is a stone um base and then a a small round stone basin on the top and you you hold the baby over and you literally just pour a few drops and it runs off the back of the baby’s head.
(41:36) So des um when you got baptized Margaret, what did that look like? Was it done in church? Was it done in a font? How did it happen? >> It happened in church like just pouring or sprinkling like it h Zion’s church. >> Okay. You weren’t you weren’t baptized at the old colony church? >> No, I wasn’t baptized at the old colony church. No.
(41:55) >> Were you baptized at all in the Menanites? >> Not not in the old colony. No. >> In another one? >> In another church? >> Another church. Yeah. Okay. That was here. >> Okay. In Manitoba. >> Yeah. >> So you So on a certain day in the spring, would it have been a group baptism? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So you came to the front of the church, did you kneel down or >> Yeah.
(42:18) Once it was up to that point, they they tell you one you’re supposed to kneel and then they do the whole group and then the um bishop comes along and reach uh pulls you up or with your hand or Yeah. and then he welcomes you into the to the church. That’s how you be with the baptism then you become a member of the church too or part of their church.
(42:39) >> So this is a big day cuz the bishops come in. >> Yeah. The bishop. >> So and he >> he has a little jug or something and he >> and he you said I before we came on air you were talking about >> they do it three times in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit. Yes. >> Okay. >> So there’s it’s not just a few drops.
(42:59) It’s quite a >> Yeah. you get a bit wet. >> Yeah, that that’s true. Yes. >> So, when all three of you were baptized and you became members, did you all at that point think now I’m definitely going to heaven? Was it was that how you felt or or or did you even think of it in terms of that? >> That was the impression I when it comes down to the personal level, I didn’t have peace in my soul.
(43:28) >> Mhm. Of course, you can’t have peace by your own works. We know that from the scriptures, but that that was generally thought that the baptism was sort of salvation, baptism, and reception into the church all in one go. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And that really So do you think the average Menanite, again I don’t want to paint >> all these wonderful people with with with a with a a >> broad stroke >> a broad stroke that’s not fair, but do you think it would be fair to say that within the Menanite community once you’ve been baptized and received into
(44:08) the church and all of that, the average Menanite would think, I’ve done what’s needed to get to heaven. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Um I was I was never >> You were never baptized? >> Yeah. I I was never baptized in the Menite Church. Okay. >> So, yeah. >> Okay. So, let let’s just delve into that a bit more, especially what you said, Kyle.
(44:34) I didn’t have peace. So, what what do you mean? So, you’ve done all this. You’ve done what all Menanites do. you’re in this historical group that goes back hundreds of years and yet you still don’t have peace. >> So So what how did that manifest itself? >> Um it really manifested itself before I even went through their baptism.
(44:58) >> Um so um there was a time in my late teens where I really just rebelled and and I just left >> that alto together. So >> you left the whole Menanite religion. >> Yeah. Okay. And I I Yeah. >> You did what teenagers do. >> I enjoyed the pleasures of sin for a season. >> Sure. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> And you had been baptized at that point? >> Not at that point. No.
(45:24) >> Oh, okay. >> This is re >> Okay. So, you had a rebellious period in your teens. >> Yes. And so when I came through that and the Lord dealt with me in various ways and I I didn’t recognize it as such, >> but looking back now I can see his hand moving in my life. >> I thought I’ve cleaned it up. That’s done.
(45:49) And so it was it was that decision and then it was the following spring where I was like I’m setting my my mind now to the things of God and and likely people looking on would have thought that that was my conversion. >> Sure. >> Because wow what a change. >> Yep. >> But I I I was not saved at that time. >> So you kind of had had a a personal reformation, >> right? as in you gave up smoking or drinking or whatever it was and you >> so you did good or what is it they say became >> um became religious let’s say >> yeah I cleaned up my life >> you cleaned up yeah
(46:24) >> as best I could >> yeah so your mom and dad were like thrilled that >> yes of course >> he’s gone through this rebellion now he’s a good manite and >> okay [laughter] but you still didn’t have peace >> no >> okay and then did you think your baptism and membership would bring that peace >> well I I just thought that that was being obedient to God and and sort of I was just doing what I ought to do.
(46:46) >> Mhm. >> And whether what the outcome of that was, I I I didn’t know what I expected, >> but there was unrest in the soul and that would that would reveal itself again. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, so after that, you then found I’m still the same old Kyle. Is that is that what happened? >> That’s a good way to boil it down. Yeah.
(47:07) >> I still struggle with sin. I still not sure whether I’m going to heaven. >> Yes. No, no security. >> Okay. >> Um eternity. Obviously, there’s no there’s nothing settled in the life to say, well, now I’m going to heaven. >> What what’s going to get me there? It was just I thought that I was okay because I was doing the things that I was supposed to do or I was taught to do.
(47:31) So, so, so effectively, you’ve done everything that the Menanite religion has taught you, but you have no personal assurance that your sins are forgiven, that you’re going to heaven. You have no what some Christians call eternal security. You’re not. >> So, then how did you then go about or how did the Lord intervene to to bring you further on? Uh there were some difficult years.
(48:04) Um I I don’t know how better to put it. Uh I was married. I didn’t have a girlfriend when I was baptized in the Menite church, but shortly after >> um met a young lady. We got married and the whole time doing the things we thought we were supposed to do and yet it seemed like the marriage was not good. Okay. >> In fact, I can say that confidence that it was falling apart really is what it was.
(48:32) >> And we had young children and and of course some of the old self was rearing its ugly head and this sort of thing. So that’s where I was at obviously in that state. >> How can you have peace with God? >> So you’re looking at you’ve been through everything. Now you’ve got this marriage that’s in difficulties and you’re thinking I need help.
(48:59) I need I need to find answers. So where did you go looking? Or how did you go looking? >> I should have just read the Bible is what I should have done. Uh it wasn’t my habit. >> I can say even through childhood we knew Bible stories as far as that goes. But a daily reading of the scriptures just was foreign. >> Mhm. And so, um, we had intended, my wife and I, to move to where I was from, which was Steinach.
(49:25) >> Mhm. >> And somehow I ran out of work there and we were brought to Winkler area where she was from. And I happened to get a job where where there were born again believers. >> And so I say that’s the working of God. running out of work in Steinbeck where we’re like we’re just ready to get married two months away and I’m out of a job and scratching our heads of what what now? But the Lord brought us this way for a purpose.
(49:57) >> So your first introduction to biblical teaching on salvation and justification by faith was through work work colleagues. >> Yes. And did they just talk to you at work or did they bring you to church services or >> It was it was just through conversation. >> Um, without a doubt they shared a gospel the gospel with me.
(50:18) >> Mhm. >> Not that I would say that I remember any of it. I think I was just so dark that that >> it didn’t dawn on me. >> Mhm. >> Um maybe to a humorous degree now looking back, but it was a real hindrance to me then. I was asked at work one of the lunch hours if I was saved. >> And I mean, not coming from that sort of wording at all, I said, “Well, I’m baptized.
(50:49) ” >> And then the man just responded, “That’s not what I asked.” >> He was blunt. >> Yes. [laughter] And that there was an issue at the time. Not that I brought it up to him, but >> yeah, >> that the Lord used that to speak to me greatly. >> So, you were kind of offended at the start, but then when you thought about it, you said >> there’s >> So, then did you go searching in the Bible or was it more and more conversations? >> Probably both.
(51:18) >> Mhm. I didn’t I still didn’t really dive into the scriptures um until uh one of the preachers in the church we were part of, he sort of challenged the congregation to set social media aside for a month and just read the scriptures. >> Wow. >> And so I I did that. I think he told me afterwards that I I was the only one.
(51:39) Wow. >> But >> anyways, so so I I think I read through the whole New Testament and again looking back you would think, oh then you knew everything and it >> it was just a veil of darkness. Like I can’t I can’t sit here and say that anything stood out to me. >> Wow. >> I read it but >> there was no bearing or >> So you’ve still got the kind of glasses on of I’ve been baptized.
(52:09) I’m a church member. You didn’t know what the missing thing was. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, when did the light start to first kind of really penetrate light of the word? >> It was I think the combination of because I had read the New Testament and I and I was still continuing on in the reading and the burden of my own sin.
(52:36) So where that conviction came from I I mean I can’t tell you a verse that just >> shocked me but it it was the lifestyle where first of all no peace and so this internal struggle that you can’t can’t even explain. >> Mhm. And your conscience too, right? >> Yeah. And so it was it was that it was really the my burden of sin.
(53:01) And then I take it that through conversation at work, it was made clear to me that there was forgiveness of sin >> through the Lord Jesus Christ and faith in him. And and it’s not even that I would have been a stranger to that sort of wording. >> Mhm. >> I mean, I grew up knowing that the Lord Jesus died on a cross and he he died for sin. Yeah. Pay make a payment for sin.
(53:29) But uh when the night the night that that I was saved, it the story from Luke 18 was really on my heart where you have this Pharisee and this publican and >> Mhm. >> and now I can say the Pharisee was a picture of me pre-con conversion and I had to take the place of a publican and where the Pharisee was self-centered.
(53:54) That’s just what I what I knew. I was looking in here for peace. I was looking in here my good works for salvation for peace with God and I wasn’t finding it. >> Mhm. >> And uh the night I was saved that that story was in my head of the publican where he all he did was he did not even lift his eyes up to heaven and he he cried out to God, God be merciful to me a sinner.
(54:19) >> And so I I did. It was under the burden of sin. It was 2 in the morning maybe. Wow. >> In my living room and I cried out for the Lord to save me and and uh well, I can for sure say he did. We know that the Bible says salvation is of the Lord. >> And uh it was this knowledge that yes, Christ died for sinners.
(54:43) >> Yeah. >> But I was actually the sinner that Christ died for. Mhm. >> And when you come to that realization, you you can’t help but have peace with God. >> The burden was rolled away. >> So you you you you basically saying so how how long did that take that whole sort of process of where you felt the burden and all that? Few months.
(55:09) >> Well, the the unrest would have been years. >> Okay. Yeah. Um, but I started that job when I [clears throat] in 2010 and I was saved in 2015. >> Um, so >> likely through conversation and and the scripture reading, right? The the month that I took to read the scriptures would have been >> shortly before I was saved.
(55:36) And and I obviously come from a group where they don’t teach a day of salvation. So, it’s not like I’ve marked it on a calendar. >> No, >> it’s is very vivid in here. >> You remember it? >> And I don’t have a date for, but it was spring of 2015 is is when the Lord >> So, so you were looking at at getting to heaven as a kind of a process of growing up in the Menanites, eventually getting baptized, becoming a member, and then after that being as faithful as you can till you die, and then but you’re never really sure.
(56:05) >> You’re never really sure. You’ll find out. >> Yeah. >> After you you pass. The night that you’ve described was a night you realized from from what I can understand, it’s not about what I do. >> It’s about what the Lord Jesus Christ did for me on the cross. He died for sinners. I’m a sinner.
(56:22) Therefore, that means he died for me. And if he died for me, it’s not up to me. It’s not So then I got so much stuff coming in my head now, but we need to We got about 20 minutes left. >> So, let’s just stop there and and we’ll move it. So, which one of you, Tyler and Marggo, got saved first? >> I think it it would have been me.
(56:43) [snorts] I think it would have been me. >> Okay. So, let’s let’s uh let’s give you 10 minutes to to sort of tell us that story. So, you you grew up in this nominal Menanite upbringing and you weren’t particularly religious. So, how on earth did you come to the same place that Kyle came to? What was the sort of buildup to that? So, I was still a a youngster at at the time.
(57:13) So, I’ll make reference to my parents. My my parents were were searching for more truth um from from the Bible than what they were hearing in the church. Uh, I think what Kyle said before about self-centered messages, I think is a good way for describing the messages, but but really no depth in the messages at all.
(57:40) So, my parents had some uh some Bible studies over the years uh just at at home with with a couple other families just studying the Bible uh which was always good. Um but uh then one time in uh this was in 2002, we uh got a invitation in the mail to some tent meetings uh in in Mitchell, Manitoba, just 20 minutes away from us. And uh well, my parents were searching for something something more truth.
(58:14) And so then uh well we went we went and uh it was summertime so uh me growing up on a dairy farm milk milking cows that that is um summertime is always a busy time busy time >> on the farm. Uh but uh by and by we went week after week after week and that’s >> so these were like every night. >> Yeah these were every [clears throat] every evening.
(58:40) Every >> this is in this tent. >> Yeah. first in a uh tent in the in the summer time. >> Couple of guys preaching every night. >> Couple of guys preaching every night. It wasn’t it wasn’t uh with the snow outside and minus 30. No. No. In the summer time this was >> and uh that’s >> so so so they would sing a couple of hymns, preach and and go home.
(59:01) >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. Basically basically that’s what it was. And uh um that’s where my parents first heard about uh salvation, about being born again. And uh so yeah, me being a youngster, just only uh 10 years old, I went along with my parents and I I heard the heard the gospel message and and uh I didn’t get saved at the gospel meetings, but uh that uh following winter, the evangelist came came over to our uh house once a once a week for Bible study.
(59:44) >> Oh, so one of the guys that preached in the tent. Yeah. >> He then started visiting your home. >> Yeah. He he started visiting our home just for a Bible study just talking over the over the truths in the Bible >> um revealing more stuff to us from God’s word. >> And uh one evening he was uh talking about hell.
(1:00:07) What what’s hell? >> Oh, hell. And there’s more than two places people go to after the death. Never heard of that. >> Well, no, not not really. I’ll say new in the Menite church, someone dies and they go to heaven. >> Oh, >> they go to heaven. Like everybody everybody goes to heaven. That that that’s how it was.
(1:00:26) So So yeah, there was there was hell. And then I think what really struck me was that hell, no, I thought hell, you go to hell and then you burn up and that’s it. But but but I found out no hell that’s that’s forever and ever. And even even now when I think about about forever and ever uh with our minds of just yeah we have to be here then and it’s going to be over uh or I was born such a date and I didn’t die.
(1:00:56) But we don’t we don’t even understand what forever and ever means eternity. Um so that really was uh something for me. what if I go to hell, I’m I’m going to going to burn there forever. And uh I guess that was uh the the night I was saved that I came to to trust trust Jesus Christ as my savior. >> So how old were you then? >> I would have been >> um 11 years of age.
(1:01:26) >> Oh wow. So So were your mom and dad already saved at that point? My parents were saved at that point for for approximately 6 months. >> Right. So this 10 came, >> they heard the gospel and they got saved during that time or shortly after? >> During during the time. Yeah. >> Oh, okay. Both of them. >> Both of them.
(1:01:47) >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> And what did you did you see a big change in them? >> Um not not particularly. I wouldn’t say right aways. It was it was a very big thing for my parents from going to this liberal Menite church just knowing about I wouldn’t say that they taught you have to do good works but just do your normal thing go to church be faithful and at the end of life you go to heaven >> and this teaching about you’re a sinner you have to be saved in order to go to heaven that was completely different from what what I grew happen even though
(1:02:29) >> in fairness uh Tyler where I come from there are millions of people whether it’s Church of England Roman Catholic um Orthodox Methodist um you know there’s an awful lot of people have exactly the same view it’s not like a particularly Menanite thing but it’s the same idea that as long as you’re a good person and you try your best and you go to church you might get to heaven.
(1:03:00) It’s just a standard package in Christendom. Uh so what you’re describing is is very typical. Um but it’s just fascinating to me that this this this movement that came out of the reformation with all this light and you know salvation, believers baptism, they all been martyed at the stake and now all these years later it’s really become in many ways just like the very system it came out of.
(1:03:27) as far as offering, you know, obviously Rome is is still very different, but as far as how you get to heaven, the music hasn’t really changed very much. So, so you heard about hell and you were terrified of going there. >> Yeah. >> Forever. >> Forever. [snorts] Um, >> so previously the solution to that would be try harder, be a better manite, go to church, be baptized.
(1:03:55) So you’re saying the solution is put it put it in your own words. What’s the difference between the track you would have taken to avoid hell before and what what brought you to assurance you’re not going there? >> Um yeah I guess exactly like you said try harder and um what Jesus said from the cross it is finished are two very different things.
(1:04:21) It’s finished and try harder. Do do more. It’s all done. Those two things when you see the way I think when you see that there is more to do that’s seeing that Jesus is a liar because he said he already said it is finished. Well, what else are we going to do? >> That there’s there’s nothing more to do. It’s already done.
(1:04:44) >> So So all you have to do is trust Christ. And and we were talking about baptism before. Um, baptism is not about getting to heaven at all. It’s trusting Christ. Then baptism is just identification. And also, baptism doesn’t have to do with being a member at any at any church. Um, baptism isn’t well some um like Kyle was talking about that uh in the Menite church where he was from, baptism is part of membership.
(1:05:21) But that’s not that’s not what the Bible actually says. Baptism is identification with Jesus Christ. >> Mhm. >> In that symbolic act. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Identification. Identification. That’s what I That’s what I see baptism as. Identification. >> So you mentioned you mentioned what Jesus said on the cross. It is finished.
(1:05:40) So he’s not >> I’ve often heard it said he didn’t say I’m finished. So he’s not saying this is the end. I’m going to die. He’s saying it. So put that again into your own words. When when when he said it is finished, how did you now understand what does that actually mean? It what’s finished and what does that mean for you? Um that means for me that what God sent his son to this earth to do the all his his responsibilities uh were were done.
(1:06:19) The his his deed of coming to to being born of a virgin living his life of 33 years but actually what he came to do was to die. Mhm. >> Uh all of that what God had given him his responsibilities here were fully completed in full. >> Mhm. >> So he so in particular in dying he’s he’s not dying for his own sins. He’s bearing he’s bearing Tyler’s sins. Yep.
(1:06:50) >> And he he he finishes the work of atonement as in he gives his life in a substitutionary way for you. God accepts that. >> Yeah. >> And you’re just coming into the good of it 2,000 years later realizing it’s all been done. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Wonderful. >> Yeah. That’s a big thing to to realize that it’s all been done.
(1:07:12) There’s nothing more to do. It’s just calling God a liar. saying saying we have to do something yet in order to merit what he has already done. >> Mhm. So you’re just 11 at that state, did you say? >> Yeah, I was 11 years old at that at that point in time. >> So where were you when he was 11? In Bolivia. >> When was that when you >> in uh 2003? >> Yeah, he was still in Bolivia.
(1:07:35) >> Wow. >> Yeah, we my parents moved here in 2004. So, how did that how did you go from being a kind of a baptized Menanite to coming to salvation as you understand it now? >> Yeah, your parents were searching. >> Yeah, I guess my parents were already church searching when we were still living in the colony. >> Oh, okay.
(1:07:55) >> And they were searching already. >> My dad was a school teacher and he started to explain the Bible Bible verses here and there like to the children >> and that was and that created trouble. And he was then they were saying he was scaring the children too much. >> So you so your dad started reading the Bible in English or German? >> German.
(1:08:16) >> And he started doing that in the home to you kids. >> Yeah. Like at no at home and then at school. >> Oh. As a school teacher. >> Yes. >> Oh. So he started teaching the Bible to the school kids. >> Yes. >> And he got in trouble with the authorities at the school. >> With the bishop and the preachers and deacons, whatever else they have >> because he was scaring them.
(1:08:37) In what way? >> Like because they were not know they should not know about the Bible. The more you know, the more you’re responsible for it. They would say if you don’t know the Bible, then you just don’t know. >> Wow. >> You don’t have you don’t live it. But then I guess my parents never gave up. They just continued.
(1:08:55) And then there was more families that then we started to have studied the Bible like on one day and a week like in the evenings and then >> several families. Yeah. >> You’d meet in someone’s home. Yeah. on the colony. >> What What day was that when you would meet? >> On a Wednesday. >> Wednesday evening. >> Yes. >> So, this is amazing, right? This is like the Holy Spirit working in the colony.
(1:09:15) And even with the pressure from the bishop or whatever, you’re you’re sort of No, we need to get to know the Bible. So, and you got no one to teach you. There’s no evangelist. There’s no gospel tent. >> No. >> And there’s no even a colleague at work. You’re just literally on your own >> looking at the Bible. >> Yes.
(1:09:32) >> And what were you looking for? I guess for the truth or like for more Yeah, I guess. And then all of us like I don’t know what was it in 2000 maybe and all of a sudden there was just a vehicle of of a man from I think he was from Ontario. Okay. >> He showed up on our yard. >> Wow.
(1:09:53) And somehow I guess the Holy Spirit had told him this family is searching [laughter] like just like he came and told he and then we had Bible study with them like then he was he was the one that explained and more and more and then that was just created just more and more trouble like >> so now now it’s got word has got out in the community that >> Yeah. Oh yeah.
(1:10:15) They would if there was a vehicle coming to the colony they would definitely look where where that vehicle was going. >> Oh, I see. So, okay. >> So, you can’t just drive in and out and nobody knows. So, you So, this guy’s coming in from Ontario and everybody’s talking. What’s he here for? What’s he doing? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Neighbors have nothing.
(1:10:33) >> Oh, wow. It’s fascinating, isn’t it? So, so then you >> he tells you what Kyle and Tyler have told us. He tells you the gospel. You need to be saved. There’s a heaven. There’s a hell. >> You can’t get there by your good works. It’s only through Jesus. So, >> so did people start getting saved? >> Yeah, I guess some Yeah, I would say yes.
(1:10:58) >> But then I guess my parents but they had it like on a on a Thursday if they >> So Wednesday evening was a Bible study, right? >> Yeah, Wednesday evening was a Bible study and then on a Thursday morning or was it even afternoon? And then on a Thursday, the brethren would have the discussion at at their church.
(1:11:14) Like they would get together and see, okay, what do we do with this man now that’s not obeying our rules? >> Referring to your husband or referring to this guy from Ontario? >> No, referring to my dad. >> Oh, okay. So, the brethren meaning the kind of elders of the church or just the general the elders of the church? >> The elders of the church.
(1:11:32) And then maybe they’re they’re good people like that. They would look on like they would Yeah. >> The faithful ones. >> The faithful ones. Yeah. There we go. >> So, they’re getting worried about your dad because he’s now getting involved in this. >> Yeah. He’s >> reading the Bible and listening to this. >> He’s not obeying our rules anymore.
(1:11:47) >> Oh, wow. So, did did he come >> and they would get together, okay, what do we do with this man now? >> And they came to the discussion. Okay, just shunt him or take him kick him out. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And he wasn’t. Then >> and he wasn’t was he saved at that point, you’d add? >> Had he already actually been born again or that they >> I would say yes.
(1:12:10) >> Okay. Okay. >> But then I guess he then once they do that then you can’t go to church. You can’t hang out with nobody. You can’t go to the store and buy anything. >> So I’ve heard of this. There’s actually a film called The Shunning. I think it’s about the Amit. >> Yes. Yes. >> So what is this shunning? It it it’s like so he’s still living in the Menanite community. Yes.
(1:12:32) >> But nobody talks to him. Nobody >> No. Nobody talks to him. >> He’s like across the across the other side of the street. >> Yeah. >> Trying to make him feel so excluded that he’ll come back begging for forgiveness. >> Yeah. Yeah. There we go. Yeah. >> Wow. Psychological drama, isn’t it? >> That’s how >> it’s sad.
(1:12:49) >> But then I guess my parents decided to move out of the colony. >> Okay. >> Start a different colony. But I guess that never really started or we never got >> Yeah. So they wanted to start like a born again colony. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Start a new colony. >> Start a new colony. Yeah. >> Okay.
(1:13:09) So that didn’t happen, right? >> No. >> So then what sort of age were you at that time when your dad left or got shunned? >> Not exactly. But were you a teenager or early? >> No. Yeah. You were probably around 13. Yeah, probably. Yeah. 13, 12, 13. >> So, what did you think of this? Did you were you thinking, “Dad, you shouldn’t be doing this.
(1:13:32) It’s making life difficult.” Or were you on board with his >> I guess we were kind of just on board with him and kind of like following along. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Did you have a lot of siblings? >> Yes. >> You’re from a family of eight? >> No. >> Six? >> No, 12 with me. >> Oh, 12. Wow. >> Yeah. My parents had 14. >> So, we had 12 disciples alive. Yeah.
(1:13:53) [laughter] >> Okay. So then did you get saved around about that time or did it take you much longer? >> No, it took me much longer. Only like once we got here like when I >> Okay. So that was in Bolivia, was it? >> That my parents >> that they they left the colony or was that in? Yes. >> So then when did they make the decision to come up to Canada then? Oh, that that had to do with years already like when they started with that because we because my parents were poor they had to search for something like to get income
(1:14:29) or >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So eventually you you you moved north you came to Winnipeg or this Manitoba? >> Yeah. >> And did your parents start going to a Bible believing church at that point or >> No, not at first. We were not I guess we’re not so familiar with this year. >> At the first church we were here was an was old colony.
(1:14:50) >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> So, we just carried on going to the Menanites. >> Yeah. Also to the old colony again. >> Yeah. Because that’s what >> that’s what you knew. >> Yeah. And then >> No, we didn’t feel at home there. And then we went to the Rylander. No, didn’t feel at home there. >> Okay. >> And then there’s the Gort Colony.
(1:15:08) Then we went there. No, that doesn’t didn’t make us feel at home either. >> Yeah. Then I guess somehow we found the Zion’s church. I guess we stay were there like for numbers of years. >> Also a minionate church, right? >> Also Zion Menonite church. Yes. >> But then when did you personally understand the gospel for yourself? I’m not looking at a date.
(1:15:31) What what what was the sort of roughly the time? Were you late teens or early 20s or >> I probably in my teens. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And this was this just through your dad telling you the gospel or did you >> No, it was at the Zion’s church. There was a revival meeting revival meetings I would say. >> Yeah. >> So you you were saved in the men in the Menanite church.
(1:15:53) >> Yes. >> So that that again shows you the spectrum eh? Yeah. You’ve got all the way from liberals or whatever right the way through to you’re hearing the gospel in the Menanite church in the Zion church. So there’s there are evangelical Menanites. >> Is that right? Yeah. >> Yes. >> Um was there any particular Bible verse or any particular story that that made an impression on you like it is finished for you and the good Samaritan? No. No.
(1:16:21) The Luke 18. Was there any particular verse or >> I I don’t know if I would have a particular >> thing just like what Tyler and Kyle would have. >> Yeah. Yeah. But there came a moment when you knew you were saved. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And then you guys then met. >> Yeah. Yeah. We met. >> And how how did you meet when you come from completely different backgrounds? >> No. No. Same background.
(1:16:48) We’re still Menites. Still >> Menites. [laughter] Yeah. But but she’s from Bolivia. You’re from >> Well, yeah. I’m from here Canada all the time. >> Never never moved anywhere. Actually, to tell you the truth, we met online. On online. Okay. >> A very modern way. >> Yeah. Very modern way. Very modern way. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Now, we’re almost out of time.
(1:17:11) Uh I’d have liked to gone on to so much more. Um let’s just take a couple of minutes because I’d like to ask you a question, Kyle, >> in relation to all of this. So here we have a church come out of Rome and they’re they’re Protestant and they believe in believers baptism and they have services and they sing and you know now we’ve heard all three of you talk about being born again, being saved and you’re sure you’re going to heaven and you’re sure your sins are forgiven.
(1:17:46) To me, if I was one of your former friends in a Men Menanite church, my first question would be, well, then that means I can just live as I like, you know, so you’re saved. Um, but you know, what if you go out and murder somebody? What if you go out and break the Sabbath? What if you what if you, you know, abuse your wife or something? Can you just still say you’re saved? So, just help me talk that through for a couple of minutes.
(1:18:14) How would you have you heard that objection? And how would you answer it? >> Yes. Um that is a concern from yeah people that we know. Um so simply just if you boil it down and take what’s left we don’t and we haven’t done good works for salvation. >> We can live in newness of life because of salvation.
(1:18:44) Um there’s verses that in the scriptures that say, “Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.” >> And uh >> maybe I should just >> Yeah. >> read for clarity. Yeah. >> Cuz it cuz the Bible does make all these things clear. >> Sure. [clears throat] So Ephesians 2 and verse 4, but God who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened or made us alive together with Christ by grace ye are saved, and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in
(1:19:30) the ages of to come, he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace ye are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, >> which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(1:19:59) And so the power to to live like we ought and how the Lord would want us to live is only again in Christ. >> Um and it’s not for our salvation is because >> this God of eternity has made a way for us to be in a relationship with himself. >> Mhm. >> And um Tyler was I was thinking when he was talking about the Lord’s words on the cross, it is finished and what that means.
(1:20:25) It’s a really great thing and and maybe we can’t fully comprehend it but but our sin had actually separated us from God. >> That’s what the scripture tells us that that there’s this big gap and we in ourselves we can’t bridge that gap. We can’t go to heaven on our own. So what the Lord has done is is sent his man his perfect man from heaven and he bridged that gap and he lived this perfect life that we couldn’t live and because of our sin and and separation from God obviously God has claims >> upon sin and and there’s judgment for
(1:21:00) sin and he poured out his judgment on his son while he hung on the cross >> and that’s what was finished. God himself is satisfied with the work of Christ. And and I I think I can speak for us three that that we’re satisfied with the work of Christ. >> And I am. >> And and if anyone were to ask me, “How do I know? How do I know I’m going to be in heaven at the life end of life?” It’s only because of Christ.
(1:21:28) >> It’s all him. And and if I don’t end up in heaven, that means Christ can fail >> and he can’t. And I’m confident in that. So, >> so, so before you were thinking it was kind of faith plus works equals salvation. >> Yes. >> Now your understanding is faith in Christ equals salvation. And the works >> naturally follow.
(1:21:55) You want to live for the Lord, not to earn salvation, but because you have it. >> That’s right. And if you fail, it affects your communion with the Lord, but it doesn’t affect your union with the Lord. That’s right. You know, you you’re linked to him as a son to a father. >> But confession is not to get saved again or to confession is just simply to maintain that daily relationship with the Lord.
(1:22:18) >> Yes. >> Thank you for coming on the podcast and uh we’re going to get some more different groups on today, but it’s been wonderful to have you. Thank you so much for making the time. May God bless you all. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. [music]